Thursday, September 25, 2014
Persepolis 151-250 Discussion Post
The latter part of Persepolis deals with Marji's awkward emergence into adulthood. As a child, she struggled to fit into the roles pressed upon her and frequently found herself at odds with other children. As an adult, Marji encounters a great deal of new experiences as she tries to assimilate in her new home. Do you believe exposure to different cultures and beliefs is healthy or destructive toward personal identity? Do you find the scenes involving Marji's astonishment regarding sexuality and domestic disobedience humorous or do you pity her? Also, are there any examples of her finding comfort in the traditional values of her childhood?
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The scenes you’re mentioning are the point where (for me) the story really starts to become confused about what it is (and not in a good way). The implication Satrapi is making is that the sexual purity stuff (and whatever else you want to put under that umbrella) is directly linked to her cultural identity. “That night I really understood the meaning of sexual revolution. And that was my big first step in assimilating into Western culture.” I think this is a really narrow-minded statement. Everyone is faced with the loss of innocence in regard to sex (and again whatever else you want to lump in with that) at some point in their life, it has nothing to do with being from an Eastern vs. a Western culture. Actually I’ll go one further and say that I think this statement is reinforcing a negative stereotype about Western culture.
ReplyDelete‘Sexual revolution’ (to use Satrapi’s term) is a common trope used in contemporary coming-of-age stories to talk about the adolescent period of life (anybody seen Spring Awakening?). So when she starts talking about that stuff, as a reader you’re thinking (OH I see. This is a coming-of-age story). And then she ties that trope to the ‘cultural identity’ aspect of the story and it causes this unproductive disconnect. The argument here is ‘I was Iranian so that was weird for me’. But it would have been just as weird for :me: to be in that situation at that age…and I’m not Iranian.
I’m not saying that every story needs to conform to a particular formula, but I am saying that (good) narratives should represent some kind of deeper perspective about the events being portrayed. When trying to grasp on to that deeper perspective in Persepolis, I’m just not finding anything that makes sense based on the text.
So to directly answer the question: when I read the scenes in question, what I’m thinking is “I don’t understand how this fits into the broader story, and I think you’re being a little bit racist.”
I think exposure to cultural differences is important for someone going through the struggle of entering adulthood. Seeing multiple belief systems can only help a person decide for him or herself what they believe. There is, of course, the possibility of confusion, which may not help someone's growing process, but overall I think it is important to have that struggle of beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI mostly pity Marji when she witnesses Julie's attitude toward her mother and to sex. Coming from a nation where the women had to cover their hair in order not to tempt men and then moving to a place so different and open to conversations about sex had to be very shocking. In the chapter titled "The Veil," Marji has a breakdown wishing to see her family, even though this requires her to wear the veil. She also seems to find comfort in the traditionalist society's views on sex; it takes some pressure off of her. The one time she prepares herself for sex, she ends up hurt. This most likely makes her wish she was in a society where sex does not happen until marriage, leaving no room for disappointment like this.
I was left with the feeling that the second half of the story left much to be desired. I agree with Max when it was said, "The argument here is ‘I was Iranian so that was weird for me’. But it would have been just as weird for me: to be in that situation at that age…and I’m not Iranian."
ReplyDeleteThere is an awkwardness for any person that leaves their native country for a different country. I am not Iranian and I felt put out by the environment that Marji was experiencing when she was sent to Europe. Austria and many other European countries at this time were experiencing their own -revolution - of sorts that American culture wouldn't be having for a while longer. There are certain similarities between American and European cultures, but they are not the same and even I felt that certain scenes were racist on part of the author. I can understand that for her story that this European experimentation was important, life changing and shocking, but I did not like her 'Sexual revolution' as she put it.
Everyone has this sort of revolution once they grow older and each culture is different, but this section was sort of hypocritical of the main character. She herself says during the story that she has no wish to conform to society, but to live in her own way on the sidelines, but on more than one occasion (not just the sex) she is conforming to society. She does it again later when she gets married towards the end of the story.
I kept waiting for a climatic moment and found none. The story was interesting and unique as a reader until she went to Europe. Once we crossed over into that part of the story, I felt that she lost what was holding our interest. The part with her living in Europe was its own story, but not a unique one. (Thats just my personal opinion.)
I think this time in Vienna is very informative to her personality as she becomes an adult. She is exposed to all kinds of people from all around the world with different cultures and beliefs. I think it is difficult for her to adjust to, but I think it would help anyone grow up with a well-rounded understanding of the world. She is at first shocked about western sexuality, which I did find kind of funny. I think a lot of cultures shame sexuality and it is interesting to see how she adjusts to a more liberal world. I don't think it would harm her, although maybe back in her country it will be hard for her to adjust to her home country's customs.
ReplyDeleteOk. I'm going to totally disagree with a couple of above posters on the notion of Satrapi's perceived racism.
ReplyDeleteA number of years ago, I worked for a company here in the states that hired internationally. About a third of my coworkers were from Taiwan (and for the vast majority of them, it was their first time in the U.S.). I was not just tasked with training them but also ensuring a smooth transition into Western culture. Without doubt, the biggest cultural shock was how open we are when it comes to sex. And not just "sex" as we Americans see it, but kissing, holding hands, PDA, flirting, and even .... and this is HUGE ... the very pursuit of intimacy. This was a radical change from what my coworkers were used to and many struggled their entire summer they spent on the job.
On the other hand, others (a very few) adapted quite quickly and readily!
So I do not believe Satrapi is being racist. I think her experiences in Europe made her a stronger person; she develops into quite an independent person (challenging the nuns, standing up for herself, breaking up with her boyfriend). As far as the parallel between the Iranian Revolution and the sexual revolution ... I personally think it works. We see her way of life and ideals constantly changing and being challenged.
I do empathize with Marji. I've moved around a lot just here in the US. I remember how difficult it was just relocating in high school from the Deep South to the Rockies. I was called out multiple times for actually looking at people when they walked by.
I think you're missing my point slightly. The assertion Satrapi is making in that quote I pulled (which punctuates a chapter) is that my level of sexual promiscuity (and sure we can lump in PDA and whatever else as well) is somehow linked to the culture of the geographic region that I live in and not a personal choice. I’m not okay with that.
DeleteI understand your point, Max - it was eloquently stated. I just happen to *strongly* disagree with you that racism is afoot here.
DeleteI am currently taking a class this semester called Media and Identity. I've learned from this class that identity can always be persuaded due to a given environment. This is not a destructive cause rather a healthy one towards her personality. It is always good to embrace a little from different cultures in order to get a better understanding of how the world works. Everybody should take a day to embrace a different culture in my opinion. As for Marji, I find her moments with sexuality and disobedience very humorous. Nothing says teenage rebellion than what's been going on.
ReplyDeleteI would argue that Marji's exposure to Western culture is ultimately healthy—it resulted in the artist who was able to create this work. However, while I would label it as destructive, it evidently was difficult for the culture-traveling adolescent. In the West, she battled with the traditionalism engrained in her, and back in Iran, she carried Western beliefs that she acquired in Europe. Both ends resulted in lonely alienation and a confliction of identity. Yet a strong theme in the novel is to be true to oneself, and thus it is about Marji reconciling these differences in order to establish her identity.
ReplyDeleteI think that sexuality of the novel is treated with humor rather than intended to draw sympathy. The most 'pitiful' instances of sexuality rather come from her desire to forsake her innocence, and the difficulties she meets trying to do so. I find the most interesting point of the text's sexuality to be as she is back in Iran and must combat the sexually-repressed women who are steeped in contradiction between Eastern and Western ideas.
Well, she definitely finds solace in childish comforts—her relationships with her parents and grandmother remain more-or-less for much of the novel, save her shared cigarette habit with her mother. She wonders where these figures of comfort are as she is lonely in Austria, and it is not until the apex of her maturation at the very end that she is able to shed this reliance and become a full adult woman. I think that the majority of her resorting to culturally-prescribed conservatism is found in her early interactions upon moving to Europe (pot smoking, public affection, etc.)
While I personally believe that exposure to new cultures is a good thing, I think that in certain situations, it can be harmful. In Marji's case, the shock value of the Western culture that the Islamic government of her homeland so vehemently detested was enough to send her diving into the culture without hesitation. Perhaps had Marji been able to make better judgment calls on certain aspects of Western culture, she would not have grown up into somebody of whom she disapproved. I think that the separation from her family and friends also had a profound impact on the way Marji experienced the West. Left completely alone in Europe, Marji was without any one to help guide or advise her.
ReplyDeleteI find Marji's astonishment with sexuality to be partially humorous, but I think this is a deliberate attempt on the author's part. Looking past the humor, I can see that Marji was legitimately stunned and intrigued by the Western portrayal of sexuality. However, I also pity Marji for having found so much unhappiness through her sexual relationships.
It would seem that, in the end, Marji does not find comfort in the traditional values of her childhood. Having left the sexual freedom of Europe behind, Marji finds her past sexual experiences discomforting. She also longs for the freedom to be with Reza without being married, but it is an unacceptable practice among her culture. Later, when she does marry Reza, she finds herself still struggling with the lack of freedom now that she is a wife, and the marriage ends unhappily because of Marji's desire for freedom. Eventually, Marji so detests the Iranian culture of oppression, that she leaves Iran altogether for a happier life in Europe. Marji's mother says it right when she tells her, "The Iran of today is not for you."
I think that exposure to other cultures can be harmful only if you don't have a good place within your culture. When Marji was sent to Austria she was confused after a while she went through some changes in regards to her cultural identity, even lying about her nationality in one case. There was much going on in her homeland that I don't believe she had a chance to see what her people were supposed to be due to the fact of war and religious impositions. Marji naturally resisted the the oppression and she really had to find herself through educating herself.
ReplyDeleteI, too, wondered why some of these events were considered significant to Satrapi's overall story. Her experience with Julie was awkward, but I think most people are awkward about sex at that age (that may be because Americans can be weird about sex too?). Once I stayed in a hostel room with a group of Swedish guys. They slept naked every night even though we were all sleeping in a common area, and it freaked me the heck out. After stepping away from it it made me think about why Americans can be so weird about nakedness. So, in that way, I think being exposed to different cultures gives you more perspective on your own. Also, I think Satrapi experiencing these things at such an impressionable age fueled her to discovering who she was. If you compare sex-awkward Marji to Marji who announces she's on the pill because she has sex with her boyfriend, you can see how maturing while exposed to different cultures has influenced her. I think some of those experiences were to show you how liberal she seemed to Iranians yet how conservative she seemed to other cultures.
ReplyDeleteI believe exposure to different cultures is extremely beneficial for self-discovery because the more real life scenarios you go through, the more experience and wisdom you gain. Living in another country for an extended period of time would allow someone to see how their virtues stood up in an unfamiliar environment. This is definitely the case with Marji. She came from a sexually repressed country, which didn’t allow her to rebel too much without consequences. During her travels in Europe she was able to experiment with her sexuality and drugs with far less repercussions. Although this could be seen as a destructive force, if she continued to rebel in Iran, should could have been executed for similar behavior.
ReplyDeleteI see the scenes where she explores with her sexuality and experimenting with drugs as natural phase than occurs in many isolated adolescents. I find these scenes somewhat humorous, but they also make me pity her because she was a victim of circumstance in some instances. She definitely felt pressure from her friends to behave in a certain way and participate in drugs. I like the scene where she says she would pretend to smoke, but didn’t inhale. Then she would just act high very convincingly.
When she returns home, Margi does seem to take comfort in having to wear the veil again because it relieves her of pressure to stand out, and to constantly worry about her looks.
I believe that exposure to other cultures has the potential to be extremely beneficial to a person, but it is difficult to say how beneficial it was to Marji. She was thrown into another culture with very little protection and few options at her disposal. Like most teenagers, she managed to adapt, but she would have done better if she had had a person to help guide her through other than friends with questionable loyalties. That being said, this exposure clearly had some benefit to her because we would not be able to read this story otherwise.
ReplyDeleteAs for the scenes involving her sexuality, I find them both humorous and a bit pitying. They are certainly written in a way that evokes a smile and a chuckle or two, giving a bit of comic relief to an otherwise tense story. But I also feel a bit of pity for her; she comes from a culture that keeps things like sex and drug use in utmost secrecy with only trusted people. As such, she doesn't really know how to react in many situations, choosing instead to get away from everyone else and be alone with her thoughts. Unfortunately, this is often just a part of growing up as different people starting having sex at different times, leading others in their circle of friends to feel awkward or left out.
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ReplyDeleteExposure to different cultures and belief systems at a young age is more likely to give an individual a much broader perspective of the world than if they had not been. As far as affecting personal identity I think it is simply a matter of how a person processes the information. For some people it may be a positive experience in helping them to critically decide how these different cultural and religious beliefs apply to them personally. Others might be overwhelmed by all the contrasts of the many cultures and beliefs that can be found in the world and may find themselves with further questions with fewer answers about their identity than they had from the start.
ReplyDeleteI found Marji's shock about sexuality relatable in some ways. From second grade on up to high school I had been in a Christian private school where sexuality was rarely talked about. When I switched to a public school for my high school years it was a huge culture shock in how open everyone was open about sexuality. I didn't know how to respond because it was never an open topic at my old school - we didn't even have sex ed. But this is also where Marji disappointed me. She presented the shock of open sexuality like it is something that only Iranian individuals or others from similar conservative cultures would have. While Western society is not conservative in the way of Iranian society there is still a level of conservatism in Western religions that puts children raised in those religions in an awkward spot when openly confronted by sexuality. This is not an Iranian exclusive reaction but the reaction of anyone raised in an environment that is strict on sexuality.
I think an exposure to different cultures and beliefs is absolutely an important thing for every human being to experience. I think that through exposure, we (the collective we) become more aware of the global scope in which we reside. It's easy to become boxed in to one corner of thinking or belief. Seeing the ways of others is a good way to open that box up a bit. That's not to say that one should not stay true to their cultural or religious beliefs, but trying to have a greater understanding of the other people that fill the world is important.
ReplyDeleteAs to my reaction to Marji's feelings about sexuality and domestic disobedience… well, that's complicated. On one hand, I definitely feel a sense of pity in that her background essentially limited certain acceptable behaviors for women. I think that all people - no matter what race, gender, or creed - should be allowed to act for themselves as they see fit, as long as it doesn't' come at the safety and expense of others. Independence is something I myself hold of high value, and consider it to be one of the defining characteristics of what it means to be human.
That being said, as a white American male, I'm not sure I'm have the right to really criticize Marji's POV. Faith, be it born from cultural or religious institution, is also extremely important to what it means to be human. And Marji's beliefs - the things that she holds true - are wrapped up in beliefs born of both those things. I don't think that she's "wrong" or "right" in her beliefs. I think it's more valuable to look at why she has the beliefs that she does. I do very much believe that the limitations enforced on women by Iranian society are grotesque and ultimately short-sighted, but we cannot deem the viewpoints and opinions of women who grew up in that structure to be invalid. She might be a product of what might be consider barbaric gender hierarchies, but that doesn't invalidate the beliefs that she holds dear.
Being informed of other cultures is, in my opinion, quite important. It allows one to see other ways of life, and possibly critique the life one currently leads in a positive manner. Sadly it could be a negative experience, but I think the reward outweighs the risk.
ReplyDeleteAs or Marji's reaction to more open ideas of sexuality, I found it quite comical, yet not surprising. It is almost always awkward when things you thought were suppose to be more hush hush, become open discussion. It is kind of like when I would be at my friends for dinner in my younger years and the parents are cursing at the children, and the children returned with similar responses. I would never have done that at my own house with my parents, but that family was very open with their vocabulary and it was quite shocking.