As mentioned in an earlier post, McCloud's definition of comics is quite broad. Do you think it's too broad? Why do you think he leaves his definition so open? Would you include the examples he does under the category of comics? Why/ why not?
One thing we can all agree upon, however, is the centrality of his theory of the icon to his idea of comics. How does McCloud use the term "icon"? How does it relate to the comparative imporance of the cartoon to comics?
Finally, what is the gutter in comics? How does it function, like more iconic/ abstract images in McCloud's estimation, to encourage reader participation? What is the concept of "closure" relative to the gutter?
Obviously, there's no need to engage with ALL of these questions, but try to weigh in on the three topics in some regard. Your first comments should be added by 8pm Thursday, but we can hopefully keep the conversation going for awhile! I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
The term iconic or icon in comics is what readers typically associate with the images of comics while reading them. The scene, face, style and the vocabulary that form the traditional experience for comic lovers and creators. In a way the ‘gutter’ can be viewed as an icon of comics. The gutter being the place in between the panels/cells is to readers like a place where we fill in the blanks. It's the space that allows us to use our imagination to move the story forward. These places in between can be used to visual the parts of the stories that we cannot see and to create a sense of time, that the story is progressing.
ReplyDeleteJapanese manga and Korean manwha do not have clear ‘gutters’ in their art like American comics do. There are still panels, cells and lines but they lack the space in between the images. However, I don’t think that it takes away from the movement, pace or imaginative qualities of the comic. I think that modern western comics still use gutters as an artistic style because the image of it reminds us of the gutter space between image cells in a roll of photo or movie film. Movie and photo film move when placed into a reader or projector and I think that authors/artists want their comics to move in the mind of their audiences.
Jennifer, your link between the gutter space and the icon is a very useful one. We should keep talking about both as entities that, as you say, encourage readers to "fill in the blanks."
DeleteAnd, the idea that American comics use gutters in a way Japanese manga and Korean manwha do not because of their reliance on photography/ film as models is fascinating and provocative. Do others agree about the movie analogy? While I'm not assigning Japanese manga or Korean manwha this term, we could definitely add something short if you have a rec to function as a point of comparison. McCloud does compare American and Japanese comics later, but not extensively.
The definition of comics has to be broad in order to accommodate for all the things considered to be comics. Then again, not everyone can be satisfied with the definition, and chances are that it will leave somebody out. But that's beside the point; broad definitions make for more open minds, but also more debates about how one thing could be a comic alongside another thing because it also fits into the definition.
ReplyDeleteThe term "icon" is used by McCloud as "any image used to represent a person, place, thing, or idea." Linking this to the next topic in this post, the gutter is an icon; the gutter - the space between panels - represents the idea of time continuation. I personally use the gutter as a time and place to imagine the way each character moves, or imagine what they would look like in our world. I like to engage with comics that way. This is my kind of closure, I suppose; closure being observing the parts (the images and panels) but perceiving the whole (the way the characters move their bodies between panels, and imagining them as flesh and bone). Closure is one of the most interesting topics, I have always found, when facing comics, so I'm glad to have a term for it now.
I'm curious if anyone else imagines the characters not as themselves but as a real person performing this in front of you or in an area familiar to you?
I like that you are extending McCloud's idea of "closure." I, too, wonder if he is being too narrow in thinking that we can only identify with characters by projecting ourselves onto them. Is it possible to imagine, as you say, a "real person performing" the acts in the comics?
DeleteI loved how broad McCloud's definition was. In the chapter, he gave us this MASSIVE history (the panels where he portrayed himself on an entire planet of comics displayed the idea pretty well) of comics going back thousands of years to a point where I didn't even know comics existed. With such a massive history and massive compendium of genres, it totally makes sense that the definition would be broad.
ReplyDeleteThe gutter has always been one of my favorite parts of comics (especially when folks, like McCloud, do work outside the gutter.) I feel like these days with movies and TV shows and whatnot, a lot really like being spoon-fed our entertainment. Comics have always been that beautiful in-between place for me. You get the visuals handed to you, but there are still the gutters where sometimes lots of time or sometimes just seconds will pass, and in those places you get to use your imagination.
I do think it's interesting to compare the gutter in comics to how other media do or not not require viewer participation. Is there something about comics that function to encourage viewers to do more work that do other forms of entertainment? The critic Hillary Chute thinks so and suggests that comics can offer a more progressive venue for thinking about gender, for instance, than can film, which she sees as doing all the work for you.
DeleteMcCloud's discussion of the icon is...an interesting one. At least in terms of the first three chapters, it definitely seems like Scott McCloud loves him some structuralist analysis. Which is why it's interesting then that his discussion of the icon is two steps short of the traditional Sign Classification Model (Icon, Index, Symbol) but seems to try to cover similar ground.
ReplyDeleteTo speak plainly: I thought his breakdown of what an icon is was a bit clunky and it's been done better elsewhere.
Where it did become useful for me was when he landed on the 'cartoon' and talked about its practical role in the medium of comics. The empathy/participation gained through the use of cartoon is something that I never really thought about before. I had always had the inkling that comics were more a more participatory medium then...say...film. But I would not have been able to identify the cartoon as a reason for that.
Which leads me to the other thing that makes comics participatory. The gutter. This was an especially interesting chapter for me as one of the stories I'm working on does not use traditional gutters. It was interesting to hear from from Jennifer that gutters have a much different use/meaning in Eastern comics, so I should probably take a look to find some examples of how it's used differently there.
The idea of the psychology of closure is an interesting one, and he mentioned that the use of repetitious abstraction can force the viewer to consider the entire page as a whole instead of creating discrete moments using closure. I wonder if that is really such a bad thing when you're talking about comics.
I think that a lot of modern writers/artists use whole page compositions where closure is created at the level of the page rather than the level of the panel. Manapul/Buccalleto's current work on Detective comics is a great example of this. In McCloud's pyramid, they'd definitely be a bit more toward the top than most, but I think the Picture Plane abstraction they're going for is actually in service to the story. And I think if the form and the content are working in service to each other, you're probably doing your job pretty well.
Max, good points about McCloud's love affair with structuralism. He does seem to have read his de Saussure. But, I agree with you that he gets beyond structuralism with his ideas about the gutter and closure. To me, they are also some of the most useful concepts in the book. I continue to return to them years later. For those of you seeking more than McCloud, however, I'm going to compose a post about comics theory. That way, we'll have an antidote to McCloud in those moments when we need it.
DeleteAlso very interesting to think about whole-page compositions and closure. We will be looking at that throughout the semester.
McCloud does leave his definition of comics a bit broad. I'm not opposed to this open-ended definition, and feel he draws a convincing, direct link from hieroglyphics to say, the Amazing Spider-Man. After all, both convey information to the viewer through sequential images. I think McCloud's argument is strengthened by Wolk's observation that comics is a medium, not a genre.
ReplyDeleteAccording to McCloud, the icon is an "image used to represent a person, place, thing or idea." I find his theory that the more simplistic an icon, the more we associate with it. He demonstrates this by comparing his cartoon icon with a more realistic icon (p. 36). I found this did make difference in my reception of his message.
All media requires an act of participation from it audience. When we watch a film, we must often suspend our disbelief, and when we read a novel our imaginations must actively visualize the characters and setting. With comics, the gutter acts as a sort of anti-icon. The space between panels denotes tie and space of varying degrees and we must participate in "filling in" these gaps.
I'm interested in this idea of the gutter as an "anti-icon." Can you say more?
DeleteAnd, we will definitely talk more throughout the semester about comics in comparison to other media--particularly through comics' reliance on participation from the reader.
I find the broad definition McCloud uses for comics widely appropriate, especially when talking of comics as a medium. Definitions for mediums are never specific nor narrow, take drawing for example, it’s often described as expressive mark making, that’s it. Simple, doesn’t exclude a lot but specific enough to not allow sculptures in.
ReplyDeleteWhat interests me more is the gutter, the space in-between the frames. Where we are required to fill those gaps of time with our own imagination and perceptions of what will happen. While film streamlines its gutters, it could be possible because of this stream lining of gutter is the reason film has been more widely accepted to our everyday culture. That and television, of course. What I’m interested in is the disappearing gutter in most modern/ contemporary comics. A lot of comics that I have read recently have adapted floating frames and full page formats to frames. I can't help to think if this is comic artist/writers trying to stream line their style due to the general streamlining of everything in today’s society.
I like that you're thinking critically about the loss of the gutter here. Is its disappearance a sign of progress/ experimentation with form in comics or something more like the "streamlining" in other media you note? Very good point!
DeleteMcCloud does a great job of thoroughly illustrating his deliberate openness when defining comics. I find it difficult to disagree with him as he is sure to refute narrowing definitions from many angles. He is careful to be inclusive which is critical in deciding what is and isn't some type of art. Including as much as possible in a definitions without too many narrowing factors gives artists and audiences the most room for innovation and appreciation. A narrow definition leads to stagnation and stylistic in-breeding which is the slow death of creativity. McCloud does not, however, refuse to exclude what he thinks is not comics. With openness in mind, it is appropriate to distinguish medium based on their attributes. This lends me to find his definition convincing and reasonable.
ReplyDeleteI also found the discussion of icon and the gutter helpful. In many types of art, perhaps the greatest challenge is accurate and meaningful communication to the viewer. The gap between what you intend to communicate and what the viewer receives is paralyzing massive. Artists must bridge this gap using the tools that McCloud so thoroughly discusses. Abstraction allows artists to condense and illustrate concepts through icons. The “gutter” allows artists to communicate both simple and complex information and time through sequencing. If a comic artist uses these tools well, his icons will convey what he intends and the reader will understand the implied actions and passing of time. Comics, like many other mediums, has developed this visual language as a unique and meaningful art form.
Interesting conversation about intentionality in comics. Do you think that the gutter sometimes acts against the intentions of the artist, ie is it possible that, if we agree with McCloud that the gutter is a space in which the reader can imagine action, it might also be a space that can subvert the wishes of the artist?
DeleteI find that all three of these questions are intertwined in a unique way simply because of the way that McCloud defines things. Starting with his definition of comics as "juxtaposed pictorial and other images in deliberate sequence", we see that a great many things could be considered comics. But he does this intentionally because history shows that this art form is ever changing and evolving. The modern comic didn't come about until the early twentieth century, but we had other creations long before this that fit his definition. Building on this definition, I believe that there is a relatively new creation that could be used to create comics, and that is the Emoji (a form of the emoticon for you less technically inclined folks). A few minutes on Facebook will show that it is indeed possible to use it to tell stories (I recently saw the entirety of the musical Les Miserables reduced to emoji!). One could argue that such a construct wouldn't be a comic, it does fit under McCloud's definition; it is a series of icons in a deliberate sequence, after all.
ReplyDeleteUsing emoji (or any other kind of computer icon) to tell a story also makes unique use of the gutter. In most comics, the gutter helps to show the passage of time or changing of scene, while in others it is almost like the camera changing angle. In both of these cases, we use closure in order to be able to read the sequence and understand the story. Emoji stories take this to an extreme because most of the story is not actually stated on the page (or screen). We are given icons to show characters, places, actions, etc., but are not actually given a coherent plotline. Yet from the icons, we can determine it through the use of closure, both for things on the page and off. The gutter is critical to this kind of story, but it is no more critical to this than to any other comic; there is always a huge amount of information that the author wants to convey, but there's no way to simply write everything on the page and expect to keep the reader's attention.
As this text was published in 1993, I wonder what McCloud would say about the way we use emojis and other icons in today's increasingly digital world. Would he accept them under his definition as comics or would he keep them out?
Fascinating conversation about emojis! This would make a great midterm paper. I've never thought about emojis as sequential art, but you make a great argument that they are increasingly used as such and that they require extreme user participation for their interpretation.
DeleteIt makes me think of how technology is influencing other, originally print-based forms--most notably the novel. Have you heard about the cell-phone novel, now fairly popular in Japan? Or, novelist Teju Cole's twitter "drone-poems"?
Cell phone novels:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/world/asia/20japan.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Cole's drone poems that revise great literature: http://behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com/2013/01/teju-coles-seven-stories-about-drones.html
I believe McCloud's broad definition is suitable because of the variety of forms this medium has taken throughout history. Comic strips, or similar mediums, are in no way modern. Context and cultural influences have shaped many earlier forms of what we might call "comics" today. While style and purpose change over time, the methodology of presenting the ideas stays the same. By approaching comics with a broad sense of the word we can incorporate many less conventional, but still powerful, forms of expression into the medium.
ReplyDeleteMcCloud defines the word "icon" as any image used to represent a person, place, or idea. He goes on to sort icons into more specific categories that have their own set of rules regarding presentation. I found the "amplification through simplification" principle very interesting because of what it suggests about the reader's own perceptions.
I've always observed the use of the "gutter" in comics, but never knew there was a formal definition for the technique. I think artists having the ability to use this effect to engage our imaginations gives them a distinct advantage over straightforward material. Use of the "gutter" and "closure" speaks to a greater understanding between the audience and the creator because it involves both parties having a common understanding about the flow of events.
Good points. As I mentioned in response to another post above, I'm also interested in whether the gutter allows the reader to interpret images in a manner different from what the author intended. We will discuss this throughout the semester.
DeleteI believe that McCloud's definition of comics is necessary to be broad because it is a medium that can take multiple forms. I think that he leaves his definition open so that we ourselves can fill in the cracks. We each have our own way of doing things, so he leaves the definition so broad so that we can make our own definition, thereby understanding the term better.
ReplyDeleteMcCloud uses a term known as icon. This term might be a very important element in comic. Icon is an image used to represent a person, place, or idea. In a nutshell, it helps the reader identify who’s who better. An important form of icon in comics is gutter. It is the space between the borders of the panels in a comic book. This is the type of element that helps develop a story to the reader. This is iconic because when the images show something of interest, the gutter helps create a sense of suspense so that the reader will be interested in it more. These elements are what truly define a comic as a medium.
Good point about how the icon and closure can be used to think about how comics work as a separate medium!
DeleteI have to agree with many of the previous posters on the his comics definition being suitable, even wildly appropriate, because it just seems right. Comics was never meant to be a limiting term. It's kind of an inviting word in and of itself. I think of comics pretty fondly. They were always something I wanted to come and be a part of, and I think the definition is appropriate in that sense. Sure, it should be properly defined, but I think it can include a lot more than some people would be willing to include initially. Comics definition is broad because comics are broad in their appeal.
ReplyDeleteI love what Traci had to say about the gutter being an icon, because I was feeling the same thing reading it over. The gutter is such a cool concept that I never really thought about until reading upon it. But man it has some great significance. It's the invisible acceptance by a reader to imagine. People talk all the time about how you have to suspend your disbelief when watching films. But man you have to do it when reading comics. And even more than that, you have to incite your imagination. Because you really don't get to see the full picture like you do in a film. And the gutter can seem like a poor tradeoff, but really, our minds are so much better at creating images than anything we see on TV, and the gutter works as an icon to represent that imagination. The gutter is our inciting incident to dream.
Very nicely put--I like the idea that "the gutter is our inciting incident to dream." And, like a number of other commenters, you are drawing an interesting contrast between comics and other visual media, such as television and film. Is comics fundamentally more participatory?
DeleteNot necessarily. I think all different visual medias require us as the viewers to participate, especially when it comes to suspending our disbelief, and willingly engaging it what the author has to say and show, however strange it may be. I guess in comics it may be a little more difficult perhaps, but I think all media requires participation from the viewer.
DeleteI don’t think McCloud’s definition is too broad as comics as a medium is constantly changing like any other form of art. How comics are drawn today may not be the same tomorrow. For example I have seen plenty of web-comics that employ simple animation effects – causing a character’s eyes to briefly change color or making a panel blur in and out of focus – that would not be disqualified as comics under this definition. I had never considered how art like scrolls and series of corresponding stain glass windows could be considered comics but really there is no difference between then or a comic you would find in a store. Both tell a story through a sequence of images so I think the term applies nicely.
ReplyDeleteI found the use of the icon helpful although it threw me off at first I guess because I always viewed icon like “media icon” or the like. But in retrospect it makes the sense as the characters of a comic are essential the icons of the story and the readers can easily identify them. I have heard the term gutter before in reference to the spacing between panels that give the illusion of a passage of time be it split seconds between successive panels or large passages such as a day or weeks. Gutters often allow me to imagine the movement between sequenced scenes pretty easily. I think it’s essential to bring the characters to life and keep the reader moving at a steady pace instead of bogging them down with details.
As Jennifer mentioned, however, manga do not generally have gutters just thin, distinct lines to separate scenes. It has the same effect as gutters but gives the scenes more flow in my opinion and allows the panels to cross into one another. I don’t remember too many Western comics employing this kind of method but I have seen plenty of web-comics use this approach. I feel that both styles engage the reader equally and are simply a matter of tradition or style preference.
Good point, building on Jennifer's, that web-comics also often reject the use of gutters. How, then, do our impressions of comics change when we read them on the web? Is McCloud too Western-centric in his appraisal of comics? As I mentioned, he talks about manga later in the book, but not at length--and his ideas about the gutter rely entirely on Western conventions.
DeleteOur impressions of comics on the web change largely in terms of innovation. Readers know what to expect from printed comics because print can limit what an artist can do. The web, however, broadens what an artist can present to their audience. How an artist can color their work changes and that in itself can change our impression entirely. In some ways color appear flat on page but on a computer screen colors come to life. How does the artist utilize their colors and do they work in terms of what the artist is aiming for? Shading, I find, always leaves a huge impression on the audience. An artist who knows how to shade their colors and work with lighting brings about a whole new texture and feel to scenes.
DeleteEffects are another interesting aspect. Like I mentioned above it’s amazing to see an artist who has taken the time to not only draw, outline, color, and shade their work but also add animation to them as well. Using digital art tools like Sai and Photoshop allows the images of the comic to life. Depending on what tools they use an artist can make fire look as though it is actually glowing or give metal a gleaming surface. The visual affects pop out more than what can be accomplished in print.
What I think stands as a huge difference, though, is that often web comics are done on the artist’s own time. Often they are not getting paid to make the comic and are motivated by fans and passion. They don’t have deadlines and are free to experiment so what the audience receives is something entirely different from what might be found in print.
McCloud is very Western-centric in his appraisal of comics but I think that is because that is his experience. He has worked for years in the Western way and he likely had more confident speaking of Western conventions than Eastern. Also since comics and manga are often considered very different from one another it may be difficult to include manga more often within his book. It would be interesting, however, to see a book that goes in depth about the difference of Western and Eastern conventions.
The definition is board but as McCloud points out, comics are an endless medium. The board definition does fit the medium because he does not know if someone will find a new style of the medium the day after he released his book or fifty years later. His examples of comics are accurate. The images on the walls depict history and even today people use this idea for example comic book bibles. Those images also relate to the same story and back then communication was easiest through images since there was not a set language.
ReplyDeleteThe definition is closely related to the one for a noun, which is dead on. Cartoons are full of icons that create a connection to viewer. McCloud mentions that the audience has an easier time connecting to a cartoon figure than a realistic on.
The gutter is the passing of time between actions, moments, and focuses. The function of the gutter is to allow the audience to be evolved in the story by coming up with their own ideas. This is useful when it is an abstract comic. Allowing the audience to move in whatever direction in between panels and creating their own meaning. The audience is still a heard of lambs that need to be guided through the story and if the writer is not a bit controlling in the story, the audience will go everywhere. The concept of “closure” with the gutter keeps the viewers on the right course. This explains actions without much thought and reduces the amount of space that could be explained in five panels with just two.
Interesting ideas about audience here. Does closure let the artist guide the audience or subvert attempts to control?
DeleteThe medium of comics has long-struggled with its own identity. Though the medium often the same critiques lobbied at it as popular fiction or illustration, it often lacks the artistic appreciation of those other forms of creativity (it is, in wide circles, still thought of as a simplistic "child's thing"). Here, McCloud attempts to give context for comics, specifically in regards to the use of sequential art as a storytelling means. By tracing the history of sequential art as a means of communication and entertainment across thousands of years, McCloud makes the argument that a greater appreciation for comics as an art form is due.
ReplyDeleteMcCloud presents the concept of the "icon" as being a sort of visual shorthand for a greater concept or element. A stick figure is not only a few dashes of lines with a circle on top to equate a head, but can also be representative of a man. Or, if pressed even further, humanity as a whole. However, though icons are essentially simplistic representations of more complex ideas, that can be used to the artist's benefit. When an image becomes so abstract or so simplified, the viewer begins to apply more of their own interpretations of what the icon itself is, and in doing so often establishes a stronger emotional attachment to it.
The "gutter" is the space that is present on a page between individual panels. It is here, in the gutter, that the medium of comics truly begins to blossom as an art form. Comics require a certain amount of effort and involvement by the reader as much as the artist, as it is up to the reader to fill in the context and transitions which take place between two sequential panels. When a reader begins to fill in those details, they (in some small way) have a hand in crafting the pacing and structure of the story that is being told. And in comics, pacing is everything. It's what establishes dramatic tension. However, if the artist does not do his or her job adequately, the reader can become lost in those blank spaces, and the story can quickly go off track. Knowing what to show, when to show it, and what NOT to show on a page are all vital to effectively telling a story in the comic medium. Sadly, the complexity of building that kind of dual narrative (what is present vs. what is not) often seems ignored by the public at large.
I like that you're focusing on the complexity that the gutter can bring to storytelling--the movement between what is seen and unseen.
DeleteI think it's necessary for the definition of comics to be broad because, as we discussed previously, the medium has been so limited by peoples' understanding of it in the past. By leaving out the genres, styles, subjects, etc. one can focus on the medium itself and see its true potential. His examples throughout history of the earliest comics like the Bayeux tapestry really helped to broaden my idea of what a comic is, and I think to truly appreciate comics as a medium that broad view is necessary.
ReplyDeleteI also thought McCloud's bit about icons was a little clumsy (I think he even used "clumsily" to describe his phasing at one point). He had a handful of different categories of icons including symbols, practical icons, and pictures which I thought got a bit messy. However, I think his bit about peoples' recognition of icons sufficed for laying the groundwork of his next topic: peoples' ability to identify with simplified cartoons. I thought this topic was an interesting one, and the "face" with just the line mouth reminded me of Allie's super simple drawing of herself with Hyperbole and a Half. I can identify with her character, and she looks like something created in Microsoft Paint.
I wasn't familiar with the term "gutter" before reading McCloud's explanation about them. Thinking back, it's hard to say that I really paid much attention to gutters, but if McCloud compares them to a frame of film then maybe you aren't really supposed to notice them anyway. They never encouraged participation from me (maybe I'm a party pooper), instead I think I just linked the panels (which is essentially McCloud's definition of closure). More than anything, gutters represent the passage of time, and so far I don't see them as much more than that.
Nice critique of McCloud--both in terms of his description of the icon and the gutter. He goes on to talk a lot more about the passage of time, and I'll be interested to read your thoughts on it.
DeleteYou might be interested, too, to read Charles Hatfield's work on alternative comic; he is very interested in how comics use space to represent time.
McCloud's definition is broad but I feel as if it is fitting for the medium he is talking about. Comics can come in many different styles and by identifying comics as one form, it depletes the creativity and purpose behind them--to convey a message through sequential art.
ReplyDeleteMcCloud uses the term "icon" to mean any image used to represent a person, place, thing, or idea--something we know as a noun. The cartoon to the comic is essential because the cartoon is trying to convey a message. The icon can mean many different things within a comic. McCloud uses the example of the pipe on page 25. It could be as simple as the actual image on the page or it can mean something bigger, something symbolic. This leaves the reader with their own interpretations on what the icon means or represents.
The gutter is the space between borders on the page. It tells the reader that they are going from one scene to the next. In some comics, you see the gutter as a white panel but in some they could be black, colored, or design. Without the gutter, the reader would have a hard time transitioning from one thought to the next.
I like your use of the Magritte pipe example from McCloud. With the pipe, he is demonstrating precisely the difference between representation and "reality."
DeleteHi Kailynn-
DeleteIn addition to Professor Glaser's comment regarding your use of Magritte's pipe as an example, I also like that you pointed out how this image can become something symbolic. Symbols are often universal and I like that you reminded us of the power of the symbol.
Thanks ladies! This whole comic thing is new to me and kind of hard to learn compared to the conventional novel! I feel as if sometimes I am looking too far into the symbolism behind the objects presented rather than take them for what they are. Do you see that happening with you? Maybe I took McCloud's example to seriously versus just taking it for what it is.
DeleteI agree with some of the other post found here about McCloud's definition of what comics are. As stated by others I feel as though McCloud is leaving room for other forms art to be considered as comics as well. You could paint a comic on the side of a wall of a building. Yes it would be a mural but according to McCloud it would also be a comic.
ReplyDeleteThe comic book in itself can be considered an icon because it is easily recognizable.
The gutter (the space between the panels), create quite a certain visual aestetic if used right. For example two figures in a close up shot facing each other looking angrily at one another with the gutter separating the panels could imply tension.
Darius, I'm very interested in the idea of the comic as an icon. Can you tell us more?
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ReplyDeleteI agree with Scott McCloud’s definition of comics. One of my favorite parts of the book is when he’s coming up with the definition. He walks the reader through the process he went through to get his definition. Personally, I don’t find his definition that broad. In fact, he shows the reader that he actually had to go through some trial and error before he finally came up with a definition that fit. I actually find his definition pretty specific compared to “sequential art”. I would have never thought to label stained glass windows or my car’s owner manual as comics, but it makes perfect since because they do use sequential art to convey a message. It has opened my eyes to see how comics are used far more than I first realized. Even my photo album that tells the tale of that hiking trip I took a few weeks ago is a comic! I’m a star in my own comic just like Scott McCloud!
ReplyDeleteThe gutter is the space between the panels. The gutter and closer work together. These are the elements that make comics work. Scott McCloud supports this by saying, “A medium where the audience is a willing and conscious collaborator and closure is the agent of change, time and motion” (65). Without the gutter and closure, the audience may as well be watching a movie. For comics to work, the reader has to use closure and read onward by connecting panel to panel to make the story proceed. Whereas, a movie goes on with no help from the audience.
McCloud's definition of comics does allow us to think of sequential photography differently, as you say. That's one of the useful things about him, as well as what he's been criticized for by a number of people; they feel his definition is too all-encompassing!
DeleteI don't think that McCloud's definition of comics is too broad because comics can be a very broad medium, and that's the beauty of it. It is wonderful in its liberties. McCloud himself agrees that the possibilities for comics are practically limitless. I personally agree with this definition on almost all counts. Even his discussion of movies as almost comics is interesting. He explains that the film strips would seem like really slow comics. And in a way, I would argue that films are born out of comics considering many directors use comics (storyboards) as pre-visuals before the production of the film.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do find it difficult to accept his refusal of considering single-panel cartoons as comics, I understand that allowing these forms of cartoons to be included in his definition would make the definition even broader, perhaps a little too broad. Besides, not all single-panel cartoons depict action; some are still shots. And while some comic panels are still shots, parts of the comic require sequential action in order to make it classifiable as a comic. So, while all comic books can contain single-panels along with action shots, not all single-panel cartoons can contain action, and are thereby not considered comics.
McCloud's theory on icons is absolutely fantastic. I loved this chapter because of its almost philosophical presentation. It really is just brilliant, and I was finding myself almost moved. He uses icon as a way of defining any image that is used to represent a person, place, thing, or idea. He even refines icon into several categories to make it more understandable, such as symbolic and practical icons, and even non-pictorial fixed icons and pictorial fluid icons.
I love the idea as the cartoon as a vacuum to be filled with human imagination. It's both intriguing and enlightening and pleasant and eye-opening. He perfectly reveals the incredible human ability to create and imagine, making the reader of every comic an involved part of the creative process. He uses this to explain why comics are so appealing to the masses, specifically children, because it is at a very young age that are minds are not only most impressionable, but most actively imaginative. I personally relate to this as I find myself constantly placing myself into the story, becoming the characters to whom I relate most, and making myself part of the action. In fact, this is what got me started and hooked on comic books in the first place. Being able to identify with Peter Parker so much, I began to project myself onto every panel of "The Amazing Spider-Man." I agree with McCloud 100% that comics are appealing to the masses because they give us the ability to create and project our image onto the cartoon and become personally involved in it.
Sebastian, I like that you are bringing your own experience into McCloud's exploration of the concepts of the icon and closure/ the gutter. I do think there is something moving about this text!
DeleteI do not think McCloud's definition of comics is too broad because I agree with him that comics cover a wider range of works than most people associate with the word comics. I love that he opens the readers mind with examples dating back to the Norman Conquest of England beginning in 1066. Most people would not see this tapestry as a comic, but I agree with McCloud that after defining comics you cannot eliminate these earlier works of art from the medium. I also like that he did not include matters of style, quality or subject matter because it opens the world of comics and makes it more universal.
ReplyDeleteThe term icon is any image that is used to represent a person, place, thing, or idea. This theory is extremely important to the cartoon in comics because as McCloud mentions, a comic is able to transverse languages because you do not need to understand the words of a comic if the picture is something every person can recognize. The icon makes comics a universal language that everyone can understand and communicate through.
The gutter in comics exists between the panels. The gutter is where the reader gets to do the work and become a collaborator with the artist. As McCloud points out, the reader must imagine what is happening between the panels. In the gutter the reader takes the two panels they see and uses their imagination to connect the two together. This is a very intriguing part of comics because since every individual is different, they may all see something different between the panels. The general idea will most likely be the same but not identical. As McCloud points out, "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths," because if a thousand people read the comic there will be a thousand different ways in which the person dies. I find it extraordinary that the reader contributes so much to a piece of work and feel this also contributes to comics being a universal medium. I also found it interesting to think about how much action an artist chooses to portray because they are inviting the reader to use more or less of their imagination depending on the "space" they create between the panels. As McCloud points out, the space of time between panels could be a second such as eyes blinking, or millions of years such a planet imploding. It's fascinating that such a relationship can be established between artist and reader.
Very good point about how much "space" artists allow between panels and the way this space allows the reader to use his/ her imagination more or less! I also think it's great to think of how M's use of the icon forces us to think about the distance between representation and the thing being represented. Very interesting response.
DeleteGreat responses so far, all! I like how adept you are at reading between the lines (so to speak) of McCloud's work and pushing his analysis into new places. I am excited to see you bring this knowledge to the rest of _Understanding Comics_ and the rest of the semester!
ReplyDeleteDid others have responses to Dean's idea about emojis functioning a manner similar to comics, as McCloud defines them?
ReplyDeleteHe wrote: "Building on this definition, I believe that there is a relatively new creation that could be used to create comics, and that is the Emoji (a form of the emoticon for you less technically inclined folks). A few minutes on Facebook will show that it is indeed possible to use it to tell stories (I recently saw the entirety of the musical Les Miserables reduced to emoji!). One could argue that such a construct wouldn't be a comic, it does fit under McCloud's definition; it is a series of icons in a deliberate sequence, after all."
Can/ should we stretch McCloud's definition in this way?
That's a tough one Professor Glaser. I'm one of those... how did Dean put it... "less technically inclined folks" so it's hard for me to make an educated argument. I've never even used Emoji but I've seen them. I suppose if the images are combined in a sequence then they could be considered a comic. However, many of the Emoji I've seen are a single image which would categorize them as a cartoon according to McCloud. One article I saw asked whether Emoji could be the first universal language, while another wondered what could be "lost in translation." This is interesting because McCloud touched on this same concept of a universal language in regards to comics, because even if you don't understand the language they're written in, you can usually figure out what's happening based on the images. I suppose it would all depend on how the Emoji was created (single image verses sequential images) to determine if it could be considered a comic or not.
DeleteI use emojis all the time and love them! It's not hard to follow the story or message trying to be conveyed. Yes, it steers away from the more traditional version of comics but they function just the same way. You could use "gutters" to break one set of an emoji sentence from the next. I guess saying someone is "less technically inclined" because they use emojis is a bit harsh, I like to think of it as me being more creative and having fun with expressing my message. Sorry this was more opinion based but I found it interesting!
DeleteRelatedly: if we think of comics as a medium, as McCloud does, what happens when comics migrate into media other than print, eg web comics? Does anyone read any good web comics? How are they different from print comics?
ReplyDeleteThe wide idea of what comics are is completely valid. As most have mention it allows many things to fit the category that need to belong there. If they didn't fit it would discount a lot of quality works. Though there is still a somewhat low opinion of comics, if things graphic narratives didn't fit within that category the would most likely be tossed by those outside the targeted demographic, maintaining the narrow views of what comics are.
ReplyDeleteAccording to McCloud, icon is imagery representing some "thing". This includes people, places, things and ideas in the words of McCloud. When he begins to talk about how people view themselves really hit home for me. Allowing for this reasoning for the simplified version to be more iconic. McCloud mentions humans as a very self-centered species, and I agree. This allows for the idea of the icon, cartoon, or simplified version to be more memorable than the real thing. Because we see ourselves in a similar fashion. We don't envision ourselves as how we truly are, thus allowing a strong connection to things displayed in a similar way. Comparatively to how we can easily see faces in almost anything.