As the facilitator for Blog #2, I know that I am posting this early. However I wanted to open blog #2 early due to the holiday weekend so that others have more than enough time to respond.
I found it vastly interesting how in Scott McCloud’s
‘Understanding Comics’ he stated that, “As children, our first books had
pictures galore and very few words because it was easier. Then as we grew we were expected to graduate to books with much more text and only occasional
pictures…and finally to arrive at real books. Those with no pictures at all.”
It felt as though in this moment Scott McCloud was speaking
to the evolution of reading on a maturity level and not on a literacy level. It
is true that historically we often used pictures more often than not in order
to tell a story or to express a message. However this had more to do with the
level of literacy than it did maturity.
This notion of reading books without pictures as being
something that “adults do” is a common social concept found in European and Western
nations and not as much in Eastern nations. In fact adults are often seen buying and reading manga in
public in Eastern nations. 
I have always found it fascinating how American
society stereotypes comics and animation as something for children. There are
many modern comics and manga that are modeled with the intention that older
audiences will read them. In fact many comics nowadays have ratings so buyers/sellers
are aware that the material within is not suited for all audiences.
How do you feel about the notion of comics being a medium
for younger audiences?
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| Superman DC Comic |
Scott McCloud also often noted, how comics began to transform after their creators began to ‘borrow’ techniques from their Japanese
counterparts. The different techniques are used tell time or to show emotion,
such as larger cells, thought bubbles, open and closed panels.
Often while reading various comics time becomes relative. The relativity of time is a common issue found in novels and
books without pictures. The author often has to tell the reader “such and such
time has past.” While in comics we tell time via the background (seasons,
holidays, day/night) and other methods.
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| Kuroko no Basket (Japanese Manga) |
Based on the readings and/or your own experiences with
comics and manga do you feel that the image techniques found in comics and
manga have the ability to invoke all our senses? Do you think that comics have
the ability to invoke an emotional response like that of novels or movies? Do
you think that altering the shape of panels changes our perception or
interpretation of the story while its being told?
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| Superman 1957 |
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| Superman 2013 |
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ReplyDeleteI think it is not so much the fault of Western culture that adults don't read comics but the type of society we live in. I don't think adults are against reading things with pictures I just think there is simply not enough material written for a mature demographic.
DeleteIt's interesting to note how we use pictures to learn and therefore associate it with a childish endeavor. The stations of the cross in church's were used for that very same purpose. It wasn't until the 1960's that the masses were not offered exclusively in Latin. When the church realized that much of attendees couldn't read or sometimes even listen they decided to hire artists to create works for them. You did not require an education to look at the stained glass murals and make out the story. I look at comics and graphic novels and realize that regular novels don't fully utilize your sense of sight. There are no context clues or things to be revealed
In regards to audience, there is an obvious Western stigma surrounding comics and animation as childish. McCloud speculates reasons that these media are effective forms of entertainment for children, creating a trend that later would form a stereotype. This however isn't valid, as there are plenty of examples of adult-oriented comics and animation. Two interesting points of examination: the trend of implicit adult themes and humor in youth-oriented comics/animation, and the adaptation of the comic, which repackages previously-thought 'childish' texts into hipper and more adult films.
ReplyDeleteI think comics have the same to offer as other media, but just as with most all art, it requires a learned appreciation and understanding. The same can be said for more challenging forms of music, visual art, etc. I have found in my own experience with comics that I take for granted their readability, and breeze through the words, robbing myself of the full visual effect. However, I believe that a thoughtful reading of a comic will yield a response uniquely different, but potentially equal, to other forms of art and entertainment. That is, you know, if it's good.
You bring up a good point about comics and readablity here. Do we need to learn how to read comics as we once learned how to read words?
DeleteAre comic books a medium for younger audiences? Yes and no. It all depends on the genre of the comic. As explained multiple times in my previous blogs, comics are a type of medium and can be any form of genre. The Walking Dead is more suited for a mature audience, while Marvel comics (Spiderman, Iron Man, Hulk, etc.) are suited for a less mature audience. It all depends on how the comic is written. But the way it is drawn is for all ages.
ReplyDeleteComics are just well illustrated novels that appeal to our senses. I truly believe that comics do have the ability to invoke all our senses, and our emotional responses. It has happened to me multiple times. If we altered the shape of panels it will change our perception or interpretation of the story while its being told, but I would estimate by 35%. All comics are doing is being visuals. The most important element is how it is written.
There's a movement to take what we often refer to as "children's literature" more seriously, as well. Many scholars are now thinking more seriously about picture books as literature.
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ReplyDeleteSo the obvious answer is: 'Yes, there is a stigma of comics as a childish media'. And obviously, 'No, that's not the case by and large'. In fact it's actually something of a problem, even as early as several decades ago. I recently heard Dennis O'Neil (Batman group editor at the time) talking about how he thought the Killing Joke wouldn't end up in the hands of young children because of its price point. What he didn't realize is that there would be a high percentage of parents/grandparents who saw it and thought 'Oh this is Batman, my kid will love it.' The end result was young children reading a comic book with disturbing depictions of violence and suggested rape.
ReplyDeleteTo me I'm less worried about 'getting comics the respect they deserve' (they have several sections of the NYT Best Sellers list), and more worried about there being a diverse range of comics for all ages and for all people in general. The goal being that if someone does take a chance on getting into comics, their choice is not between a black and white memoir or over-muscled white men punching each other.
To bring it back to McCloud, I think his ideas about comics appealing to our senses are somewhat one-dimensional. He only covers the cartooning shorthands for appealing to the reader’s senses (motion lines, smell lines, sound effects, etc.). I think the missing piece from his analysis here is that representational art can appeal to your senses by being visually immersive.
I mentioned the Killing Joke earlier, so I’ll roll with that as an example. In the last seen of the Killing Joke, it is raining heavily as Batman and the Joker reach a final confrontation. Brian Bolland spent a decent amount of page space rendering the rain drops colliding with the puddles on the ground. He’s not using any shorthands of the cartoonist here, he’s just drawing what it would look like. Because he does such a good job of it, your senses of sound, touch, and arguably smell are being activated.
So in summary, I agree that comics can appeal to all of your senses, I just don’t think McCloud considered all possibilities (the Achilles heel of structural analysis…).
The part of these chapters I found most interesting was his assertion and time and space are necessarily collapsed into one another in the comic book medium. I’m not sure if I think this is completely true or not (definitely something that requires some thought). But if it is…man…someone really needs to get on figuring out how to use that. What kinds of stories could you tell by truly exploiting a homogenized space-time?
Good point about the trippiness of the space-time collapse. Also: I wonder if you're right that the visual itself can be immersive in a manner McCloud doesn't credit.
DeleteComics have long-been associated with being childish, but such is often the case with texts that rely more on visual storytelling rather than narrative (though, obviously, comics at large a marriage of these two things). The same can also often be said of animation and video games. Of course, in all of those mediums, there are cases where creators have sought to push the boundaries of the perceived limitations of those forms of storytelling. For comics, that occurred during the mid-to-late eighties with the "mature" boom heralded by creators like Alan Moore and Frank Miller. Since then the stigma has not been so prevalent (Watchmen was on Time's one-hundred best English-language novels from 1923 to the present list, after all), but it will likely be a long time before it disappears completely.
ReplyDeleteComics and manga certainly have the ability to evoke a number of sense. Off of the top of my head I can think of a number of times when I have experienced laughter, sadness, horror, revulsion, and reflection all as a result of reading various comics.
Comics are perhaps even more manipulative of emotions than other mediums. A film or animation may be able to create an emotion connection on a visual level, but it lacks textual depth. A novel may offer textual depth, but sometimes a visual is in order to provoke the strongest response. Comics, being a narrative marriage of visual and textual elements, actually has more at its disposal than other mediums in terms of how it can connect with the reader.
Now, how to illicit those responses is an art form all to itself. To do it successfully, the creator must be aware of how the reader follows the information that is being presented to them. Smaller panels might imply speed or isolation, depending on how and where they are placed on the page. A large splash page offers a chance to capture a moment of triumph in a cinematic full-screen format, or to present something horrific in brutal, absolute detail. In that way panels are not so different from editing or chapter breaks in that they are structured to most powerfully evoke a wanted response.
Glad that you're bringing up yet another aspect of the senses--that of affect or feeling--and the way comics can manipulate it.
DeleteI feel like the notion of comics being a medium for younger audiences childish in itself. I find it particularly puzzling because with cartoons there’s a whole genre of “adult cartoons” which is OK to watch without your maturity being brought into question – most of time at least – yet somehow it is immature to read comics aimed at adults. Cartoons themselves have always been considered kiddy fare but make a cartoon with mature topics and language then you have an acceptable genre. There are even cartoons aimed at kids that can be considered OK for adults depending on their execution. The same can be done and has been done in comics! Manga especially can be incredibly mature. If the stigma for comics could be as easily waived as that towards cartoons I don’t think this would be an issue. As for now all I can wonder is why one is somehow more acceptable than the other.
ReplyDeleteOn the matter of invoking emotional responses and senses I’d give a resounding yes. In a lot of ways I feel like the visuals can invoke an even bigger response than novels as you are not imaging the events but watching them unfold on the page. I can certainly say that touching scenes meant to invoke sadness can affect me more than if they were written because I can actually see a character’s expressions as they come face to face with grief. Backgrounds are also much easier to relate to because instead of spending my time trying to figure out what the location would look like in my head I see it and the connection is instant. Character interactions, locations, seasons are all easier to relate to image than in writing.
On the other hand I do find that action is little trickier on paper than say seeing in a movie. In a movie it’s simply a matter of following the motion with your eyes. With comics/manga the artist must draw the scene a certain way or the action is rather lost. In comics or manga that are heavily action based such as Attack on Titan for instance I often feel like if I watched the anime version seeing the action sequences would make a bigger impact than can be accomplished in the manga.
We should definitely keep discussing this point that many of you are bringing up about comics and affect/ feeling. Can comics express feeling in a manner different than other media?
DeleteI personally think that the idea of comics being a medium for solely younger audiences is rather ridiculous. I think that comics carry a specific appeal for children and young adolescents in the same way that picture books do; in their simplicity, they are easier and more enjoyable to those with lower levels of literacy or shorter attention spans. However, I see no reason why the art form cannot be enjoyed by adults and elders. It really is, like McCloud says, a wonderful meeting of the two mediums of visual art and literature, and can be enjoyed as such. In fact, I would even argue that in some ways, comic books present a uniquely more interesting aesthetic appeal because one enjoys both the artwork and the writing instead of just one or the other.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that image techniques in comics are able to evoke all of the senses. In fact, I would argue that comics can often evoke more of an emotional response than many other art forms because of the dual nature of comics being both words and art. I personally believe that movies are very powerful at arousing emotional responses, but comics can often come very close. I have always been fascinated by the way that comics can stir up such emotion merely by the design of the panels or sudden icons that have no concrete representation, but merely represent sounds, scents, textures, or even specific emotions. The phenomenon of synesthesia has always interested me, and perhaps that is the reason I was drawn to comics in the first place. Comics is one of the only art forms where it is possible to experience all five senses through the use of only one.
Finally, I do believe that the shape of panels can change our interpretation of the story as a whole. For example, many of the early Batman comic books simply told a story that was not much unlike those of Superman, the Fantastic Four, or Donald Duck. However, by adding darker, broken panels and using sharp corners and lines, Frank Miller was able to reinvent the Batman and give it a darker, edgier feel. Similarly, Alan Moore's "The Killing Joke" makes use of disturbingly sudden splashes of color, swirling shapes, and jagged lines to make the character of the Joker even more disturbing, demented, and horrific. All of these many factors greatly affect the outcome of the comic and how it is interpreted by the reader.
Great point about panel shape.
DeleteFirst off, I guess I'll echo the sentiment that the idea that comics are a medium intended for children is just silly. It really just depends on the genre/content I guess; and just like in movies and TV, those aren't even exclusive...I know plenty of people who thoroughly enjoy "kid" shows like Phineas and Ferb or other stuff like that. It really is just a matter of opinion and upbringing that will influence the way people see them. And the whole issue of books growing up from pictures to no pictures as we grow up is totally an issue as well.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for the question of comics' ability to invoke the sense and emotions, I would say absolutely. One of my favorite examples (especially in terms of utilizing space and the shape of the panel) comes from Bryan Lee O'Malley's Scott Pilgrim comics. One scene (I tried to find it, but I can't even remember which volume it's in, so I'm doing this from memory...could be a few details off)vividly popped into my mind while reading through the questions and responses where one of the characters is on a bus driving away. O'Malley continuously shrinks the frame size and the font size and everything as the bus is driving away. I absolutely loved it and felt like I could actually hear his voice trailing off as he got further and further away. So I would go as far to say that not only can altering the shape of the panel change the way we perceive the way the story is being told, but if done correctly, it can be used to express emotion and other senses as well.
Great example from Scott Pilgrim!
DeleteWho here would also consider movie storyboards to be comics? I definitely would. Perhaps not fitting perfectly into McCloud's definition, but at least mostly fitting. So, people can call comics a childhood pastime all they want, but most films come from scripts turned into comics, then having actors portray this set of images. In this sense, I would definitely say comics invoke the same emotional responses as movies and novels.
ReplyDeleteWith every novel I read comes my own mental comic narration. I imagine what an illustrated form of the book would look like and how I see the characters, etc. Adults put comics together very carefully and with many meanings; there is a target to draw adult audiences into it.
One of my favorite parts of exploring comics is the artwork and the use/utilization of the panelling system. An interesting mood is set when there is a two-page spread full of small panels and many different moments followed by an entire page or two-page spread of one, silent moment. There are a number of these moments in comics like "Watchmen," moments of isolation, sadness, and contemplation. Use of space and shape of a composition is a top priority in the art world, and the comics world seems to mostly have that down. If the artwork/use of panels is not in my taste, I will not continue reading it. These are my favorite elements of comics; even more than the storyline itself.
You bring up an important point we haven't yet discussed--namely, that McCloud uses comics to articulate his own argument. How does that choice affect our reading of the work as a whole?
DeleteFor me, the emotional effects of a comic are longer lasting than that of just text. I think it is instinctual for people to recall an image, and in turn emotions associated with that image, while memorizing a certain line in a novel and remembering how you felt when you read it first can take more effort. This is probably because images are how we first communicate as children, and we are taught to read later. Icons representing sounds to form ideas seem less natural than icons representing the ideas themselves. Perhaps that is why there is a certain bias against picture books and comics; text alone is seen as more abstract. The combination of these two concepts in comics is a powerful method of conveying information to the reader. It seems like I can connect more subconsciously with the stories in a graphic novel and become more emotionally invested because of the various artistic techniques like gutters and panel shapes.
ReplyDeleteInteresting!
DeleteI can honestly say I read much more comics now that I'm in my late 30s as I did during my "peak" comic book phase of junior high. So the whole notion that comics are for strictly for kids is a bit absurd (and more than likely derived by those who don't read comics or graphic noels). I think the medium has advanced a bit since the early 1990s - even stories like "Spider-Man" seem to have matured a bit. Having taken a 10+ year hiatus from reading comics (1994-2007), I was surprised by how political, thought-provoking, and grown-up Marvel's "House of M" and "Civil War" were.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely believe comics can invoke an emotional response in readers. I know they have for me. Movies really don't do it for me and I invest more time into reading comics than I do watching films.
One of my favorite aspects of comics are the panels. This is an important element in story pacing (take the "Kuroko no Basket" example from above - all the panels on the left give a frantic, fractured feel to the scene. This is immediately juxtaposed with the large panel on the right. It's as if the large panel is a snapshot - a moment in slow motion. All the tension has culminated to this one important moment. We are left suspended (much like the image) .... on edge to see if he makes the basket. This all adds up to make a rather sophisticated medium in which to tell a story.
We'll spend a lot of time this semester talking about panels. Glad you bringing this up.
DeleteI think the notion that comics books are a medium for younger readers is not fair to all who read comics. I feel it goes back to the quote in this blog post that quotes McCloud. It seems that some people feel that books with pictures are for children. I do not agree with this belief however, I understand this notion as many people start off with books with only pictures.
ReplyDeleteI feel that comic books have the power to generate an emotional response. When I began reading Oriental Heroes by Tony Wong, there was a character named Chan Ou Wan that I did not like at all. It seemed that he always was causing trouble for the group of heroes. Anyway, I felt a real dislike for that character. Whereas, other characters or situation made me happy or sad depending on what was written or drawn.
The panels and placement of panels are a vital part of the comic book storytelling. I do not feel they need to be anything other than a square. I do not have a problem with with the style exhibited in "Kuroko no Basket", I just feel it an aesthetic choice for the artist. I believe it can help tell the story but, is not necessary.
And, many comics artists have felt that they have been excluded from conversations about the artistry (visual or narrative) of their work because of this designation of their work as being for kids.
DeleteI think that comics are a medium that can be enjoyed by all ages. Comics may have once been considered a medium for younger audiences but I don't think this is the case anymore. Comics have come a long way in recent years and part of this is due to the ever-expanding range of subject matter. I agree with McCloud when he talked about children starting off with books containing lots of pictures and those pictures disappearing little by little as we grow older and older. Personally I think this is unfortunate. Everyone enjoys looking at pictures. How many times do people check their facebook page to see who's posted new pictures? How many people enjoy reading magazines with pictures? Why books are considered more or less scholarly based on the number of pictures they contain I'll never understand. I think comics is a medium that can reach and influence any age group.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think that comics have the ability to engage all of our senses, as well as invoke emotional responses. I read Maus this summer in preparation for this course and I'll readily admit that I cried when I read it. It was an extremely touching book. Our senses can all be invoked when reading a comic based on the noise balloons (bang, pow, etc) and the squiggly lines invoking our sense of smell. Obviously we're using sight when we're reading them. Touch and taste can also be represented based on the images and words associated with them. Just like in any other book, it is the way the author presents the information that will determine whether it touches their audience's senses and emotions. Comics are no different.
Glad to hear you read Maus already; I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.
DeleteI find the notion that comics are for children to be rather absurd because it is largely an artifact of days gone by. When comics first started to go mainstream in this country, from the early newspaper strips around the turn of the century to the first books of the Golden Age, many of them were directed towards a younger audience. Moreover, none of the works of literature considered great at the time had much in the way of illustration, aside from diagrams and plates. But not all comics at the time were for children; think of political cartoons, which date back several centuries. They can easily be considered comics and are most certainly not for children.
ReplyDeleteWith modern comics, we are seeing a change in the way they are perceived. In the past few decades, great graphic novels like Maus and Watchmen have been published to great critical acclaim. Many monthly comic books are now targeted towards an older audience in order to combat the thinking that comics are only for kids, which is clearly having an effect. Marvel Comics has spent billions of dollars taking their comics to the big screen, and nearly all of the films to date have premiered to high marks from critics. Even if people can't agree on the artwork, surely they can agree that the writing of many comics is just as good, if not better, than that of many novels.
The artwork is a vital part of comics, however, and it can really make or break a story, at least in my opinion. I've read quite a few graphic novels and manga, but have only recently started reading American comic books again. In all three of these comics, I have seen panels in nearly every size and shape, and I find that they nearly always accentuate the story in a positive manner. For me, the most important thing that panel shape accomplishes is giving the reader a glimpse into the character's internal world. Because of the nature of comics, the story is often very external; it is difficult to show things from the character's point of view. By carefully shaping the panels, we can focus more on what they feel and how they react to things. For example, a small panel focused on the character's face could be used to show tension, anxiety, anger, fear, etc., while a panel that bleeds to the edges of the page could show that the character feels cut off from everything or it could show them having fun at a huge party. The story would be incomplete without some notion as to how the character is feeling, and comics have a unique advantage over other forms of storytelling because they can show this.
Great examples of the use of panels!
DeleteI think McCloud explains it well saying that we are expected to graduate from pictures to words. This sort of follows the trend of going through grade school and graduating from fun hands on learning to memorization and testing. I think our society is still using education and reading like a manufacturing assembly line to create well adjusted, cookie-cutter workers. We forsake creative thinking, especially thinking with pictures for rote understanding and retention. I think this attitude applies to comics as well. But since I value creative thinking and image in communication, I think this is an outdated model of understanding, and comics can have any level of sophistication according to genre and further categorization. The medium itself is in no way childish, that is left up to the content the creator decides.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I think that comics can definitely invoke and emotional response like any other medium. Image, when crafted with particular intent and skill, can definitely invoke emotion. McCloud uses line as an example of expressive image. Even lines themselves can tell us so much. This goes the same for every element of comics. The text, color, shape, pattern, line and tempo of the piece can be used to express and elicit emotion from a reader. If someone does not wish to be communicated such emotions, it may be lost on them. But most of the time, people can read very much emotion and drama from comics.
Great point, Ruthie. McCloud goes into more on lines later in the book.
DeleteThe film and literature mediums have examples that are targeted at younger audiences such as cartoons, Disney, and kids’ books. These examples don’t define the whole medium, so why should comics be any different? Just like in film and literature, comics also include stories that are aimed at an older audience such as Maus and Fun Home. These works would be too complex for a younger mind to fully understand, and yet they are still comics. Therefore, comics are not only tailored to a young audience.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that comics have the ability to invoke my other senses because I have experienced it first-hand. I have read a sound bubble of a door slamming and I’ve heard in my head the sound that the sound bubble represents. I have seen and read the descriptions of heat and rain in comics, and have been able to imagine those same sensations on my own skin. The same thing can be said for emotions. I can say that many comics have invoked a feeling of nostalgia, and have made me cry and laugh as a result. Hopefully, I’m not crazy and the only one who has also experienced this phenomenon.
Lastly, altering the shape of panels definitely changes my perception and interpretation because I always tend to focus long on the bigger panels. The bigger the panel is the more visual information for the brain to interpret.
Good point about the difference between media and various sub-types of media.
DeleteI believe that comics and manga can have a profound effect our senses because of their ability to fool the eye. The human eye is really gullible, which is why optical illusions are so fun. By using dramatic first-person perspectives and expressive lines, comic book artists can engage readers in a significant way. I personally find myself cringing at some of the more intense artwork found in the manga series "Shigurui" or "Berserk".
ReplyDeleteIn regards to whether or not comics can engage audiences the way that movies and novels can, I think, largely depend on the willingness of the reader. Scott McCloud makes a pretty strong case for the subtle legacy of "comics" throughout the ages. If you accept his broad definition of the medium then you might conclude that enjoying pictures and words together is something we all have in us, it's universal. Although, different stigmas and stereotypes arise around comics and most people find themselves unwilling to consider it a classy medium. I think most people immediately think they're only for kids or "nerds", but they secretly really enjoy the artwork and unique storytelling. What's missing is their willingness to actually take it seriously.
Also, by altering the shape of their panels comic book artists can have a direct relationship with how readers perceive the story. When reading a novel a lot of the nuances between characters and plot can be misinterpreted or missed completely. Even when watching movies we tend to overlook things that we'll catch on a second viewing. I believe comic book artists have a unique power to show us exactly what they want, when they want, and how. No ink or panel is wasted or unnecessary. We as readers are privy to portions of a story told moment by moment and what we're shown has a large impact on interpretation and meaning.
I like your idea about what we miss on a first reading. We'll be discussing that throughout the term.
DeleteIt's possible that all senses are evoked by comics, but I would argue not all comics do it well. I've heard of comics that utilize music scores (the reader participates by playing the music), and while I'm fascinated by the concept, I would think that while it makes comics more sensory in one aspect, it's also taking away from others.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little troubled by the idea that comics are for kids. Not because I feel the need to defend them, but I hardly ever see comics in a comic book store that I would recommend for a child. There certainly are comics that are aimed at kids: Marvel Minis, Ninjago, Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys etc. but I think the large majority are targeted toward the 18 - 14 crowd. Maybe I'm wrong?
18 - 24*
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